Discussion Question
Authority in the church is important.
Deacons, Elders, Etc.
Discuss.
Deacons, Elders, Etc.
Discuss.
posted by Madison | 10:48 PM
- Evangelizing Babies
- Item # 180 Your Best Life Now:The GameFor 2 or mor...
- Life Through Death
- A Hymn
- Brotherly Love
- Death is never pretty
- Billy Graham iPod
- A Personal Touch
- A new definition of college
- The Trail of Blood, newly revised
16 Comments:
I agree.
I think Biblical should go before all of those ;)
Deacons in Authority?
Today, only Christ has authority in the Church. No one else. There was a time when the Apostles had such authority (1 Cor 9:6; 2 Cor 10:8; 13:10) but since they are all dead, no one else now living does.
Pastors/elders/bishops do not have authority. Deacons/Ministers do not have authority. Widows do not have authority. (Matt. 20:25-26; Mar. 10:42-43; Lk. 22:25-26; 1 Tm 2:12). But neither do the congregations have authority over the pastors/elders.
Believers are to submit one to another, everyone submitting to the other (1 Cor. 14:34; 1 Cor. 16:16; Eph. 5:21-22; Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5, 9; 1 Peter 3:1; 1 Pet 5:5).
Believers have authority over demons and illnesses (Luke 9:1), individual married women and men have authority over each others bodies within the marriage relationship (b/c (I believe) they are one body); and individual believers have authority (freedom) over ourselves (our wills) (1 Cor. 7:37), including the authority to eat, drink and marry other believers (1 Cor. 9:4-6) as long as such authority does not cause ourselves or another to stumble (1 Cor. 8:9).
But no believer has authority over another believer in the Church.
Circenses,
You said, "...no believer has authority over another believer..."
Would you say that believers - as a community - still do not have authority over the believer?
I would say 'no', the community does not have authority over the believer. If the community is erring Scripturally and the individual is right Scripturally, then the community does not have authority over the individual. The community may interpret Scripture but it is not above it.
Example: If a pastor sees a child sinning and the pastor tells the child to repent and the child does so, who has the authority? If a child sees a pastor sinning and the child tells the pastor to repent and the pastor does so, who has the authority? I would argue that in both cases neither the pastor nor the child had the authority but the Word of God which they (presumably) are citing.
Now if the community tells an sinning individual to repent and he does so then it is not the community that has the authority but the Word of God. Similarly, if the individual tells a sinning community to repent and they do so then, again, it is not the indiviudal who has the authority but the Word of God.
Now, one step forward, if the community states that an individual is sinning and he is not sinning then the community has no authority over that individual because they are not invoking the Word of God. Examples: Jews vs. Jesus, Jews vs. Stephen/Peter/Paul, The Papacy vs. Martin Luther, Pro-Segregation Pastors vs. Martin Luther King Jr.
Now they can yell at the individual, they can excommunicate the individual, they arrest the individual, they can kill the individual, but the community never has authority over the individual.
Therefore, I would say that believers - as a community - do not have authority over the individual believer.
I hope this answers your question.
Circenses
What is your understanding of the meaning of the word authority? Who would disagree that the word of God is absolute authority?
Your example leaves me a little cold, sort of like having a congress and President that makes and a Supreme Court to interpret laws without any means to enforce them. God knows how desperately people need order. His granting authority to Pastors and church leaders is an expression of his supreme Sovereign Knowledge in yet another demonstration of His always doing what is in our best interest.
Sir,
Exousia - “the power of choice,” “liberty of doing as one pleases”, but, also, “the power of judicial decisions,” “the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed).” And “the ability to cause others to submit without the others having the ability to reciprocate.”
Very few would disagree that the word of God is absolute authority and neither do I.
I humbly disagree, sir, that God has granted authority to Pastors and Church leaders. If what Pastors and Church leaders are granted by God and then exercise is called authority then it is the same authority that is granted to every believer, either elder or younger, either Pastor or Child. At most, we could say that all believers have the same authority but also have the same submission. However, while the Scriptures and the Apostles (who wrote the Scriptures and did have authority) state that ALL must mutually submit they do not say that ALL have authority with regards to other believers. In fact, the opposite is stated, they are ALL to not have authority.
Circenses,
After reading your response, I guess I am doomed to be a prisoner of instructions. The premise was that "authority in the church is important-Deacons, Elders, etc." Discuss.
Now I have personally known the author of this blog for twenty six years, eight months and three weeks, never once finding him unable to clearly articulate what he meant, using the most economic number of words possible. Having observed that, he stated a premise, then placed it in a context with a request for discussion. Your noble effort to assign all authority on every issue to God is something with which I would certainly not take any issue. Your defense of the doctriine of the "holy priesthood of the believer" is clear.
The BSF&M, to which you may not subscribe says the following: "Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons."
I suppose this reading gives ample room for both your view and mine. Leadership is critical. If you think not, just announce at your church that you will be bringing a Christian rap group next Sunday to replace the pastor and you are doing it by your own authority granted by Christ.
I have only known the author of this blog for 2 yrs and 8 months so I submit to your knowledge on the matter.
I subscribe to the Scriptures because I believe them to be inspired, infallible and inerrant. The BFM is a man-made interpretation of the Scriptures and, therefore, are uninspired, fallible and errant. I subscribe to the BFM only in so far as it accurately reflects Scripture.
Yes, this reading does not contradict either my reading of Scripture or (as you say) yours. I think that is a good thing.
Leadership is very critical and we need pastors/elders/bishops, deacons/ministers, etc. to lead; it is their obligation as elders in the Church.
Thankfully, I do not care for rap music (except when done by Beck) and rarely care for current Christian pop music. However, if the Word of the Lord did come to me and told me to bring in a Christian rap group to replace the pastor, I would bring in a Christian rap group to church and let the church and pastor know what God had told me. If the Church refused then that is no skin off my teeth because they would not be rejecting my authority but God’s. I certainly would not press the matter unless God told me to. Ultimately, the matter is between the individual and God. Of course, my exerting such authority (actually replacing the pastor) would be wrong because I do not have that authority. That is Christ’s authority and not mine.
Dad said,
Circenses,
We have reached agreement on something, the BFM is perhaps uninspired.
As to your plans to bring a Christian Rap group into the church will that be on Sunday mornng or Sunday night? I would encourage you to opt for a Sunday night since those people are willing to endure anything. If you can get this guy Beck, I might shoot for a Sunday morning. Regardless, I wish you well in your musical endeavors.
Well played conversation gentlemen. Two Southern Baptists that can discuss an issue, and not fight, I am not sure that I have seen that before. All this and wit to boot. It has been fun following the debate.
“As to your plans to bring a Christian Rap group into the church will that be on Sunday mornng or Sunday night? I would encourage you to opt for a Sunday night since those people are willing to endure anything. If you can get this guy Beck, I might shoot for a Sunday morning. Regardless, I wish you well in your musical endeavors.”
Sir,
Very good. Very funny. I am afraid that Beck has been flirting with Scientology. Very sad. But I do continue to pray for his soul. Perhaps I should invite U2s Bono; he’s a Christian.
circenses,
the bible is a book and must be interpreted. i'm coming to the conclusion that i cannot understand/interpret the bible apart from the community.
i'm not a philosophy buff, so take this for what it's worth (very little), but i think the community is our epistemology. thus, i have no way of knowing God's authority apart from the authority my bishop/elder/deacon (and thus community)inacts over me.
Sorry, Michael. I was in Ohio for Easter.
The community certainly helps interpret, but the community includes all who are in Christ. This includes all believers of all denominations in all countries who have ever lived. This includes Jews and Gentiles, Roman Catholics and Protestants, this includes Methodists and Southern Baptists. I have found that different groups at different times in history have arrived at different conclusions as to what Scripture means. The individual must then decide which interpretation of the community he is to follow. One would hope that the individual does so by interpreting Scripture himself and siding with the group he feels best interprets Scripture on a given issue.
However, a new and young Christians are usually incapable of making such exhaustive explorations of the Scriptures and its various interpretations. Given this, I always recommend that a new believer or anyone who believes exactly what he first believed about any aspect of the Faith to continue to believe that particular view as long as another interpretation is not Scripturally proven. Hold to your original belief until you are convinced by Scripture otherwise. I think this is a very conservative approach and it relies on the wisdom, experience and knowledge of the church elders/pastors/bishops. However, if the elder/pastor/bishop interprets Scripture in a particular way and I read Scripture in another, I am under no obligation to follow or submit to his or her interpretation and he or she has no authority to command that I adopt such an interpretation.
Ben is also shaving his head now and dancing with Deborah Kerr.
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera ...
Post a Comment
<< Home